Karadzic Says Witness "Not a Victim"
Judge rebukes former Bosnian Serb leader for "appalling" statements.
Karadzic Says Witness "Not a Victim"
Judge rebukes former Bosnian Serb leader for "appalling" statements.
Former Bosnian Serb president Radovan Karadzic this week told a survivor of the 1995 Srebrenica massacre that he was "not a victim" and accused him of not having been present at the execution site at all.
The witness, who told prosecutors at the Hague tribunal that he survived the mass killing by lying underneath another body and pretending to be dead, responded to Karadzic's comment by raising his voice in anger.
"When you are saying that, as if that is the truth, may you look at your own children dead, [just like Bosniak] mothers did when their children [were killed]," the witness exclaimed.
The exchange came after Karadzic earlier questioned the witness about why he sought protective measures from the tribunal, which included a pseudonym and digital image distortion while he testified.
"There are people who share your beliefs and want to get rid of me," responded the witness, who previously testified in several other trials at the tribunal, including that of former Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic.
"Do you know of any witnesses who my supporters executed?" Karadzic asked.
"I don't know," the witness answered. "I'm not interested in others, I'm speaking of myself."
Karadzic expressed concern that protective measures were being given to witnesses who are "not victims".
"This witness is not a victim, he was a fighter in the [Bosnian] army," Karadzic told the court.
"Who's not a victim?" the witness interjected loudly. "Do you know my case at all, sir?"
Presiding Judge O-Gon Kwon told Karadzic that it was "totally unacceptable" for him to question protective measures in such a manner and called his statements to the witness "appalling".
Karadzic, the president of Bosnia's Republika Srpska from 1992 to 1996, is accused of planning and overseeing the massacre of some 8,000 Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) men and boys at Srebrenica in 1995, as well as the 44-month siege of Sarajevo that left nearly 12,000 people dead.
The indictment - which lists 11 counts in total - alleges that he was responsible for crimes of genocide, persecution, extermination, murder and forcible transfer which "contributed to achieving the objective of the permanent removal of Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats from Bosnian Serb-claimed territory". Karadzic was arrested in Belgrade in July 2008 after 13 years on the run.
Because the witness had testified in several other trials, the prosecution offered a short summary of his previous evidence and asked very few additional questions. The cross examination, on the other hand, lasted nearly two days and was marked by tension between the witness and the accused.
Karadzic contended that the witness was not driven from village in the Zvornik area in 1993 by Bosnian Serb forces. Rather, Karadzic said, the witness and his family had been evacuated by the Bosnian army.
"No, certainly not," the witness said. "The [Bosnian Serb] army moved in upon us, set fire to our houses, destroyed our mosques and we all moved out."
The witness added that Karadzic himself cut off electricity in his village.
"How exactly did I do that?" Karadzic retorted.
"You were the number one person," the witness answered. "You go to the head to ask, not the feet."
"If you say I was the one who ordered that, you have to be more specific," Karadzic said. "How and when did I make that order?"
"Let's move on," Judge Kwon interjected.
Karadzic then questioned the witness about Bosniak military resistance and read from several related documents.
"What if I put it to you that secret Muslim paramilitaries started in 1991 with a whole network of units for a number of municipalities?" Karadzic asked,
"What you are saying is a notorious untruth, [and] we didn't have [Serbian leader Slobodan] Milosevic behind us to send in.tanks," the witness responded.
The witness did not deny that he was part of the Bosnian army prior to the time he fled from his village in 1993.
He said that by the time he arrived in Srebrenica in spring of that year, he was no longer a soldier. The Srebrenica enclave was officially demilitarised and declared a "safe area" by the United Nations in April 1993.
Karadzic continued to read from several military-related documents, which the witness said he had little knowledge of. He became so frustrated at one point that he told Karadzic not to "go on about stupid things".
"Tell this court, do you acknowledge that Serbs were responsible for anything?" the witness asked, again raising his voice.
"It's only others that are to blame according to you! Let's stop these stupidities."
When Judge Kwon encouraged the witness to answer the questions, the witness reiterated that he could not answer "stupid questions".
"I experienced everything∑.If you don't like what I am saying, tell me to go back where I came from," the witness exclaimed.
At that point, Judge Melville Baird intervened and told the witness that the judges "fully appreciate" how he must feel, but that Karadzic was entitled to conduct a cross-examination.
"I have my rights, too," the witness said.
"We won't allow your rights to be trampled upon," Judge Baird said. "But we need to make sure both sets of rights are respected."
Karadzic asked relatively few questions about what happened in Srebrenica in July 1995, and told judges that because the prosecution had said that the Sarajevo element of the case would come first - and that Srebrenica would come last - he was only prepared to ask questions on events that occurred before 1993.
Judge Kwon said he was "disappointed" that the prosecution had not kept to an "earlier representation that Sarajevo could come first". He said that Karadzic should ask questions relating to 1995, but could later submit an application to recall the witness if he deemed it necessary.
Late this week, a fourth witness, Herbert Okun, began his testimony. Okun was special advisor and deputy to the personal envoy of the United Nations secretary-general in the former Yugoslavia from 1991-1997. He has previously testified in four other trials at the tribunal.
He told prosecutor Alan Tieger that he personally met Karadzic on about 50 or 60 occasions throughout the war, and kept a detailed diary with notes from each meeting.
Tieger asked if Okun had been able to identify the Bosnian Serb war aims from these meetings.
"Yes," Okun responded.
He said that the Bosnian Serbs had six main goals, which he briefly summarized. He said they wanted to establish a separate state inside of Bosnia called Republika Srpska that would be "continuous territory" and have "geographical continuity with Serbia".
In addition, Okun said, the territory was to be as "ethnically homogenous as it could be" and Republika Srpska would have a "special relationship" with Serbia that might even include absorption.
Furthermore, he said, the Bosnian Serbs would have veto capabilities over any leftover power in the centralised Bosnian government, and the final goal was to divide Sarajevo between Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs.
"These objectives were not a secret," Okun said. "They were quite open and honest with us about these goals."
Okun also said that Karadzic was concerned about the Bosniak birth rate outpacing that of the Serbs and eventually leading to a Bosniak majority.
"He was concerned this would disadvantage the Bosnian Serb community," Okun said.
Karadzic also "constantly" referred to the genocide against Serbs during World War Two, Okun said.
"I recall early on being somewhat shocked by these constant references," Okun said.
In one early diary entry that was produced for the court, Okun wrote that Karadzic "[was] more dishevelled and melodramatic, but did not use the word genocide until about three minutes into the conversation".
Karadzic's cross-examination of Okun is expected to last into next week.
Rachel Irwin is an IWPR reporter in The Hague.
